Discussion today ranged widely around this poem, but we didn't quite tackle the end, where Eloisa imagines her death. A couple of people pointed out that Eloisa could look to the prospect of uniting in heaven with Abelard as a resolution to her woe, but we didn't really look closely at the particular lines where she thinks about death.
To what extent does Eloisa find comfort in the thought of being in heaven with Abelard?
How else does the prospect of dying fit into her effort to put her mind at ease?
How does Pope bring the poem to a satisfying close?
Feel free to take on any of those questions in your response--or respond (kindly and collegially) to a classmate's ideas).
Deadline:
Wednesday (2/2) Friday 2/4, start of class.
14 comments:
In the poem, Eloisa finds comfort in the thought of being in heaven with Abelard. She can then reunite with Abelard and spend eternity by his side. Both lovers will be absolved from their sins and free to live in harmony with each other. Perhaps, Eloisa views heaven as an escape from the unfortunate conclusion to her love story. Heaven presents the opportunity for the lovers to have a second chance at creating a happy ending.
“Ah then, thy once-lov’d Eloisa see! /
It will be then no crime to gaze on me.”
(lines 329-330)
The previous lines demonstrate that there is no judgment in heaven and the lovers will have to freedom to express their passionate feelings for one another. Also, Eloisa would like nothing more than to share Abelard’s tomb when she dies. The following lines show where Eloisa mentions this idea.
“May one kind grave unite each hapless name, /
And gaft my love immortal on thy fame!”
(lines 343-344)
Eloisa’s contemplation of death signals a shift in the type of relationship that she wants with Abelard. She realizes that a physical existence precludes a “world of forgetting,” (208) so death offers a way for her to escape the passion that causes her unrest. However, by escaping passion, she is not necessarily rejecting Abelard. In class, we discussed the possibility that she resents Abelard, but there are instances in the text when Abelard is included in her discussion of death. In fact, she invites Abelard to embrace death when she says, “Come, Abelard! For what hast thou to dread?” (257). With her claim that “The torch of Venus burns not for the dead” (258) Eloisa implies that passion has no place in Heaven. Death offers Eloisa and Abelard the chance to realize a love that they have been prevented from realizing in their current states.
Yet Eloisa’s hope that she and Abelard will experience the afterlife together undergoes a change at line 289 when she tells him to forget her and abandon passionate love. Her view of death changes as she recognizes that her love for Abelard is misdirected. According to Eloisa, death reveals “What dust we dote on, when ‘tis man we love” (336). I think “man” in this line refers to humanity in general rather than Abelard specifically. Instead of asking Abelard to embrace her love, she wants him to enjoy the love of “saints” (342). Therefore, Eloisa looks toward Heaven not as a place where she can resume her love, but one where she and Abelard can redirect their love toward God.
I think that even though Eloisa recognises the folly of her love in the couplet 335-6, the next two verse paragraphs show that it hasn't weakened it. As I argue on the 'Strong interpretive claims' thread, she wishes him a painless death (339), watched by angels (340) and to be welcomed into heaven by saints (342).
The poem seems to end with the fantasy of the afterlife that Celeste describes. It also, in the last half of the last verse paragraph suggests a desire to be remembered - perhaps some shameless self-promotion by Pope:
And sure, if fate some future bard shall join
In sad similitude of griefs to mine,
Condemn'd whole years in absence to deplore,
And image charms he must behold no more... (359-62)
She desires her story to be retold in a redemptive manner or "well-sung woes" (365). The references to the future bard may also be Pope referring to his own disfigurement, poor health and exhile for his Catholicism. The future bard "loves so long, so well" (363) which could also be a reference to Pope's lifelong love for Martha Blount. The final line also speaks to his identification with the character he portrays, as Eloisa speculates "He best can paint 'em, who shall feel 'em most." (366)
A short biography of Pope is in the Longman Anthology pp. 521-3.
I agree with Shaun’s mention of the importance of Eloisa’s mention of a future bard. But I don’t look at it from the perspective of the author, because both Eloisa and Abelard where people in their own right. I think the Eloisa in the poem finds solace in the idea of the memory that others will have of her. The remembrance of her grief and solitude, sung to future generations by a bard will console her ghost (l. 359). Basically she’s saying that she can’t be consoled in her lifetime, so hopefully afterward, regardless of whether she will or will not be reunited with Abelard, the thought that others will remember their reunited love consoles her. When her “rebellious heart will beat no more” (l. 346) maybe future lovers will “sadly say, with mutual pity mov’d, / ‘Oh may we never love as these have lov’d!” (l.351-2). It’s almost as if future generations of the same society who punished them (by castrating Abelard and sending her into a monastery) will understand and regret the pain they felt. And this later understanding of her love consoles Eloisa; not the silence of death itself, but the understanding (and possible guilt) it will bring for others.
- Katie Blair
The prospect of dying puts her mind at ease because it would mean escaping the pain that she feels. The pain of being separated from Abelard and still loving him tortures her, so death would be a relief from herself, her feelings. She doesn’t really fantasize about reuniting with Abelard, she seems more intent on achieving peace and escaping her pain. Towards the end, she seems to be more calm and at peace she seems more focused on spreading her story for those in the future.
Again, death ultimately seem the route that Eloisa is going from reading the poem. She will be stuck in a situation that has no turning back from. She will never be able to enjoy Abelard any longer or she him, therefore in death she has the possibility to be reunited with him in the heavens. I will like to also explore the religious background of Eloisa. If she comes from a very secular and religious background, then if she has committed a sin, then her repent is not accepted then it is possible that she will not be reunited with Abelard in Heaven. There only other option would be Hell in which both of them will be going.
Haro, I think that Eloisa's background would have been strongly Catholic. Since Eloisa and Abelard were 12th century and that Abelard was a religious instructor for Eloisa. The schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church only occurred in 1054. I think this first schism has now been largely bridged by considering the two one church but with slightly differing traditions. The protestant reformation would not be until 1517, a few centuries after Eloisa and Abelard's death.
I think it was also mentioned in class on Monday that education at the time would have been very religious.
I agree with the people who say that by being dead she will be able to be put at ease.
"Thy place is here, sad sister, come away! Once like thyself, I trembled, wept, and pray'd, Love's victim then, though now a sainted maid: But all is calm in this eternal sleep; Here griefs forget to groan, and love to weep, Ev'n superstition loses ev'ry fear: For God, not man absolves our frailities here" (310-316).
In her view of death Eloisa views it as a way to get away from problems, to finally be able to rest and forget love and Ableard. As throughout the poem Eloisa constantly fights her emotions in an attempt to forget about Abelard and what he means to her. I don't think that Eloisa believes that Heaven is the place where she can resume their love. To those that say so could you tell me where it says that. In the last to paragraphs Eloisa never states that she specifically wants to spend her afterlife with him. Eloisa has another message to give to people and the reader.
"O'er the pale marble shall they join their heads, And drink the falling tears each other sheds; Then sadly say, with mutual pity mov'd 'Oh may we never live as these have lov'd'" (349-352).
Eloisa only mention of Abelard is when she wishes that "saints embrace [him] with a love like [hers]" (342). Eloisa only wishes him a painless death and that in the afterlife he may be treated with great care. She never states she wants him to be with her, but she does caution the people that have her story to look at them as examples. She wishes to be seen as an example of the two sad lovers who were never able to achieve true happiness so that people may never repeat their history.
Eloisa first brings up the idea of death releasing her from her separation from Abelard in lines 173-174:
"Death, only death, can break the lasting chain;
And here, ev'n here, shall my cold dust remain,"
She does contemplate death in the sense that she can't bear to be apart from Abelard and that the only way the can be together is in Heaven.
The line that I saw Eloisa truly respecting the power of death to her life and where she may have considered death as the most eloquent choice comes in lines 335-336.
"O Death all-eloquent! you only prove
What dust we dote on, when 'tis man we love."
This also seems to be Eloisa finally accepting religion as the only love in her live. She realizes that loving Abelard was a difficult way of spending her life, when loving God is more fulfilling.
Eloisa still holds on to the fact that her and Abelard will be reunited in Heaven when she says "may one kind grave unite each hapless name, and graft my love immortal on thy fame! Then, ages hence, when all my woes are o'er" (343-345). Eloisa still believes that she will eternally live on with Abelard after death.
(side note: I'm not personally saying loving God over man is a more fulfilling life, just that Eloisa may have seen that. I don't want the blog to get going on a religious debate"
As addressed in Monday's discussion, I believe and agree with others that she finds comfort and ease to the certain circumstance with the thought of being in heaven with Abelard. I think that she is using religion (God) as a tool to help her control her emotions, and ask for understanding and forgiveness for her sins throughout this situation. However, I don't think death is an acceptable as a solution to alot of problems but I have taken a step further to see it from the perspective of Eloisa. If in the case that Eloisa dies, she would have been accepted by God, able to be with Abelard "mentally", and forgiven for her sins. I think that this is exactly what Eloisa wants to happen. Until the Pope brings the poem to an end, I am convinced that now Eloisa just wants everything to be fine in the end. I agree with the last statements from Gary, with the lines 342, "and saints embrace thee with love like mine" and goes on to say:
"May one kind grave unite each hapless name, and graft my love immortal on thy fame! (343-344)..... "O'er the pale marble shall they join their heads, and drink the falling tears each other sheds; Then sadly say, with mutual pity mov'd, "Oh may we never lose as these have lov'd!" (349-352).
To my understanding, these lines explain that the idea of having much joy because of the death will just be sad. She wants the best of the best for Abelard, and wants people to take her "love" for Abelard serious and as an example so it doesn't occur to them. I think during the time period this poem was written the Pope does a a great way of telling this story so we can see more view of it and understand why she might want others not to experience the same situation as she did.
The thing that keeps her sane is that she knows when she dies and goes to heaven Abelard will be there, but she has to get through life on Earth first. It offers her some comfort, but not a significant amout to where she could actually be happy. Everyone has to die, she knows this, and almost looks foward to death so she can escape the miserable situation she is in and be with her lover. Her only hope is that one day her life will end and that she will go to heaven and Abelard will be there. In that way Pope offers some type of hope in the poem.
I am very curious about how others interpret the last stanza of this poem. Here are some of the interpretations I made. I’d like to hear different interpretations.
In general, I believe the poem is about Eloisa coming to grips with how she was mislead and wronged by her religious teacher. I also believe that the religious community let Abelard off easy. (The castration was engineered by Eloisa’s father.) Here is the last stanza in its entirety with my thoughts interspersed.
343 May one kind grave unite each hapless name,
344 And graft my love immortal on thy fame!
Remembering footnote 40 tells us fame can mean ambition; this line could be read to say Eloisa wants to graft her love onto Abelard’s ambition. From this I infer Eloisa wants others to temper their admiration of Abelard with the knowledge of the harm he visited upon an innocent girl.
345 Then, ages hence, when all my woes are o'er,
346 When this rebellious heart shall beat no more;
347 If ever chance two wand'ring lovers brings
348 To Paraclete's white walls and silver springs,
349 O'er the pale marble shall they join their heads,
350 And drink the falling tears each other sheds;
351 Then sadly say, with mutual pity mov'd,
352 "Oh may we never love as these have lov'd!"
In the last couplet, is Eloisa warning couples not to suffer a tragic love? If so, does anyone plan to have a tragic love? Rather, I think Eloisa is warning not to embrace love without regard for consequences. (This involves sacrifice. Remember Casablanca?)
353 From the full choir when loud Hosannas rise,
354 And swell the pomp of dreadful sacrifice,
355 Amid that scene if some relenting eye
356 Glance on the stone where our cold relics lie,
357 Devotion's self shall steal a thought from Heav'n,
358 One human tear shall drop and be forgiv'n.
I believe from here forward, Eloisa is addressing only the unknown bard (and not Abelard).
359 And sure, if fate some future bard shall join
360 In sad similitude of griefs to mine,
361 Condemn'd whole years in absence to deplore,
362 And image charms he must behold no more;
363 Such if there be, who loves so long, so well;
364 Let him our sad, our tender story tell;
I know “our tender story” could be the story of Eloisa and Abelard. My interpretation, however, is that “our” means Eloisa’s and the bard’s stories. Otherwise, why does Eloisa so badly want the bard to have a personal understanding of what her griefs have been?
365 The well-sung woes will soothe my pensive ghost;
366 He best can paint 'em, who shall feel 'em most.
I think Eloisa wants to warn others not to be lured into the web she was lured into by Abelard. She may also want a bit of earthly justice (even if she doesn’t wish Abelard to be damned.)
I know others are interpreting things differently than me (and each other). At this point, I’d like to know the specifics for this stanza.
I feel like Eloisa finding comfort in the thought of being in heaven with Abelard only hold so much weight. While on one hand it could be a chance for them to be together like she always wanted, on another she asks herself if she really believes that will be the outcome. Can you make up for what you did not do on Earth, in heaven? She does not know for sure and it puts her in a state of unrest.
Since Eloisa believes that her and Abelard's relationship is a "sin" in God's eyes, she is turning towards the prospects of heaven to sustain her relationship with Abelard.
Compared to heaven, her time on earth is but a very brief moment in her life. And I feel that by turning towards the idea of "death" and "heaven" it seems that she is trying to redeem herself in God's eyes, trying to show him that if she can give up Abelard on Earth, then surely God would reward her in heaven.
But if she believes that God is so against her and Abelard being together on Earth, what makes her think that being with him in heaven is any more acceptable?
However, I don't think that Eloisa is entirely looking towards death to renew her spiritual life with God. I think that she is also suffering from stress and depression because of all this conflict in her life, and that dying may be a better option than to deal with it. It's like she is declaring to God that if she cannot be with Abelard, then she would rather die.
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