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| Rochester as played by Depp in The Libertine |
- John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester, "The Imperfect Enjoyment" (p. 562 - 563)
- Jonathan Swift, "The Lady's Dressing Room" (p. 289 - 292)
- Lady Mary Wortley Montagu Montagu, "The Reasons that Induced Dr. S. to Write a Poem Called The Lady's Dressing Room" (p. 292 - 294)
If you were not in class today, feel free to post thoughtful observations and specific queries to your classmates here about any of these three poems (and the elucidation that you might have missed out on). Those who were in class are welcome to respond.
Deadline: Wednesday (4/13), start of class.
13 comments:
I walked away from our discussion yesterday with a broader question about Enlightenment culture, because I was rather surprised at the naivete in all the males in each of these poems. Wilmot's character is confused when he ejaculates ("there is no more?"), Strephon is baffled by the discoveries he makes in the lady's dressing room, and Lady Montagu's Doppleganger for Swift doesn't pick up on the nature of the woman he's wooing. In addition, the women in Wilmot and Montagu's poems both knew what was going on.
My question is: were men of this time that unaware of what went on behind the curtain? I know we live in a much more liberal society now, and nothing is hidden from anyone really, but it still seems odd to me that they are so radically unsuspecting.
Rochester's "The Imperfect Enjoyment" is striking for its explicit sexual imagery. It is interesting that the poem is worded so strongly, with its pronouncements so raunchily bold, all while describing an embarrassing weakness. His long, direct address to his failing organ casts it as "So true to lewdness, so untrue to love," an intriguing dichotomy given the vulgarity of the poem. He speaks with hatred in being physically kept from love, showing a kind of love-hate relationship with sex itself.
My question then is how to frame this direct address to a sexual organ. It resembles chastising poetry written to a betraying lover, but is geared toward a part of the narrator. Do you think it shows the very kind of self-defeating thinking that led to his unfortunate condition in the first place?
I feel like we were a bit too harsh to judge Lady Mary as overreacting or perhaps misunderstanding Swift's point. Swift is definitely poking fun at feminine hygiene, albeit with a greater lesson in mind that makes Strephon look bad as well. I think most people knowing the background of the relationship between Lady Mary and Swift would assume that it's a little bit presumptuous to assume the poem is a crack at her or that it deserves a harsh answer. But I think the reader has to try and put themselves in her shoes. It's likely that everyone in her society knew about their falling out and that many people did not correctly interpret Swift's poem and just focuse on the "LOL girls poop" part. This poem is scandalous and humorous and the people Lady Mary and Swift associated with would have known much better than we whether or not it was a jab at Lady Mary or women in general. I'd imagine that people would be curious and ask Lady Mary what she thought about the poem and that her poem is simply a way to address the gossip that might have been going on. I think it's a clever interpretation and twist on the original. Even if Swift's point was that Strephon is being silly, Lady Mary is then simply agreeing with him anyway and still making fun of men in general, the same way Swift does with women.
I'm also led to believe that Lady Mary was not someone who would overreact to such a thing based on what we've read from her -- she seems very cautious in her behavior in society and pretty honest. The intro to her Turkish letters says that she wrote letters because it was an acceptable way for women to discuss intellectual matters and that women writers and educated women were often disrespected and seen as "despicable" (172). She was someone who understood the rules of her society and operated within them in order to be hear. The civil discourse in her letter to Alexander Pope shows that she was in many respects on the same intellectual as a man and I don't see how she could miss Swift's point and am left to believe her poem was written in levity and not in anger.
@ Demo
I think that back during those times, men and women were so divided that they probably thought it improper to really explore these questions. Back then women weren't allowed to be by themselves when in the presence of men (i think?). They probably wondered but were never allowed to look for the answer.
That's my opinion, I could be wrong!
I throughly enjoyed deciding whether or not Lady Montagu was overreacting in her response to Swift's "The Lady's Dressing Room". I personally still stand by the idea that she was- that Swift was just overexaggerating the idea of a beautiful woman being gross behind the scenes and Montagu happened to take great offense to it and created an entire work to make him look stupid. I would be really curious to find out what Swift's reaction to Lady Montagu's piece was, as I'm sure he was throughly amused by her harsh and intense interpretation of his otherwise playful piece.
I enjoyed the poems revived in class today partly because they were topics that caught me off guard. I definitely did not expect to read a poem commenting on the nature of which women use the bathroom. The topics were such a different turn from the things that we have been read to where it had the feel of the time but also had something that the other did not. Swift's commenting on feminine hygiene was witty and for the most part comical. With both writer going back and forth in their response would add or reveal more insight.
In response to Demo's question:
I don't think that men were that radically unsuspecting, but rather disbelieving. The standards that were held for women at that time were ridiculous. I feel that, deep down, men could not have been that naïve, it’s just that it was socially unacceptable to display anything less then those expectations. Swift, through his poem, decides to poke fun at those absurdly high expectations.
DebbieR said beautifully some of the things I had been thinking. In addition, my thought process has me wondering about the motivations of Montagu and Swift. Our assumption in class was that Swift was offering a good-hearted observation of upper-class women and Montagu responded without seeming to understand Swift’s sense of playfulness. Perhaps the unknown reasons for her parting ways with Swift come into play.
Consider the possibility that Swift’s poem was not as good-hearted as it seemed. What if it was a preemptive strike designed to protect his good name and reputation? If you allow that Montagu’s poem may suggest the essence of events which are otherwise lost to history, she may have had a reason to be somewhat ungracious in her response to Swift. In such a scenario, it may be a “disappointed Dean [Swift]” (p 294, line 85) made good on a threat of revenge similar to what Montagu describes in the last five lines of her poem (p 294, lines 84-89). This possibility would explain the motive for Swift devoting the majority of his poem to disgusting descriptions of upper-class women, while giving short shrift to the presumed lesson of the poem by devoting only the last 16 out of 142 lines to that purpose (p 292, lines 129-144). I grant you that projecting an unseemly motive to a poem wrapped in all of Swift’s wit seems rather harsh, but it would be natural for a witty man to use his talent to defend himself.
I would agree more with the idea that both men and women were naive about sexuality to a certain degree in the times of the poem because of both the lack of complete knowledge that was available as well as the social taboos that came along with exploring any idea concerning radical sexuality.
I just really enjoyed the discussion about the exchange between Swift and Montagu. It was very insightfu to hear all the differentiating opinions on whether or not Montagu's attack on Swift was justified; personally I believe that was not justified, however I do not know fully the circumstances under which they two former friends fell out... Perhaps he really did just have it coming? Just an interesting question to ponder.
Just to respond to Demosthenes's original query--look again at the second verse paragraph. The lines Demosthenes quotes are spoken by the poet's disappointed lady friend, who understands perfectly what has happened. She kindly takes it as a compliment ("all this to love and rapture [i]s due"--she's THAT hot and he's so into her he can't control his responses), but she also wants more: "Must we not pay a debt to pleasure too?"
I enjoyed reading as well as discussing Johnathan Swift’s poem, “The Lady’s Dressing Room.” This poem gave me another perspective about the writers during this time period as well as learning more about the nature of which women use the bathroom from a different angle. I think that specifically in “The Lady’s Dressing Room” we experience a comical aspect of the author. However, I would agree that during this time period that women and men were naïve about sexuality for the opposite sex to a certain extent. I would agree with this notion due to the lack of knowledge that they possess about the social taboos and sexuality. This reading was very different from the others but some similarities as we discussed related to Montagu’s perspective and the baths. I liked how the discussion of class talked about whether Montagu attacked Swift and whether it was justified. I disagree with the idea that it was justified.
Monday was an enjoyable exercise in the "other side" of 18th century lit. Unless you're really paying attention while reading something like Gulliver's Travels or Candide, you might miss any hint that these cultures had any knowledge of bodily functions whatsoever. We cleared that up.
I still feel, like was said in class, that the description of the woman was immature and honestly would not be taken serious by any reader of an age of understanding. We know women have to do the exact same things we do behind closed doors. Yes, it is a little more disgusting to imagine because we as men picture them as such elegant creatures. If anything, I believe people would read his account as more of a comedic piece, which could also still be embarrassing. The shot back at him was a lot more cruel as well as in my opinion not really based on truth necessarily. Many times I have seen people insult someone on an important quality even if they did possess it. It just hurts more because all the people being told don't know if the person does possess whatever quality was insulted. In this case, a very important male quality of the ability to get an erection.
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