- Neither do I think our English proper to express such violence of passion, which is very seldom felt among us (p.178). "This highlights the cultural differences between LMWM and the Turkish people.It comes up at many times, such as when giving gifts, speaking with ladies, or translating poetry. LMWM is conscious of the difference and is trying to deal with it."
- As equal were our Souls, so equal were our fates? (p. 174). Mentioned by four different people.
- Nothing could be more artful or more proper to raise certain ideas, the tunes so soft,the motions so languishing, accompany'd with pauses and dying eyes, half falling back and then recovering themselves in so artful a manner,I am very possitive the coldest and most rigid prude upon earth could not have looked upon them without thinking of something not to be spoke of (182) "...Montagu is very descriptive when observing her surroundings..."
- He is a man of wit and learning, but whether or no he is capable of writing good verse himself, you may be sure that on such an occasion he would not want the assistance of the best poets (p. 176). Hint from your instructor: "want" can mean two different things here; which possible meaning does LMWM have in mind?
- I have taken an abundance of pains to get these verses in a literal translation, and if you were acquainted with my interpreters, I might spare myself the trouble of assuring you that they have receiv'd no potential touches from their hands. In my opinion (allowing for the inevitable faults of a prose translationinto a language so very different) there's a good deal of beauty in them (178). "This passage shows how hard she works on these letters/poetry/translations. It also shows her passion for poetry--someone who did not really care would not to such great lengths to get something translated."
Respond to this post by offering your further commentary or reflections on any of these passages, or by connecting any of them to either today's discussion, or the additional reading on the Turkish baths and Turkish dress.
Deadline: Wednesday (4/6), start of class.
15 comments:
In response to the first one, I found it slightly problematic because of the bit of the discussion we had today about how LMWM essentially talks down on Islam in the closing paragraph of the final letter. In this passage, she talks down on her mother tongue and on her very culture: "seldom felt among us", where "us" could almost be an inclusion of all of Western Europe. (I only go that far because of how categorical she is in her letters to define Europe versus Turkey and the East.) I noted this because this tiny nuance reverses her claim that Muslim and Turkish customs are "charming" and altogether cute. I'm not sure what to make of the contradiction, but I do find it interesting.
Demo, I had a slightly different impression of yesterday morning's class - it seemed to me that LMWM was simply uninterested in Islamic piety. She says nice things about them, e.g. "She seem'd a very good woman" (180), but just found them a bit boring. On the other hand, when she visited Fatima she was excited by the opulence and beauty of everything - from Fatima herself to her surroundings. Of course, it didn't hurt that she was given a "a fine silver basket of embrodier'd handkerchiefs" (183).
So I don't think LMWM has said that Turkish customs are "charming" overall, but that she was "charm'd with what [she] had seen" (183) at Fatima's - beauty and opulence - after having been a bit bored by the Grand Vizier - nice, good, dull people.
I think the third quote becomes controversial when you pair it with our understanding we came to in class of LMWM’s Turkish Embassy Letters. We had decided that one reason her letters were exciting to English society then and us readers today is her accurate portrayal of Islamic Turkish females. Since most men were not capable of observing that society’s females alone and without men they imagined and described them in exotic terms. For example, we said when LMWM visited the bath house she was able to refute the erotic descriptions written by male imaginations that had never actually seen it. But this quote leads straight back to Western eroticism of the other – “Nothing could be more artful or more proper to raise certain ideas, the tunes so soft, the motions so languishing, accompany'd with pauses and dying eyes, half falling back and then recovering themselves in so artful a manner, I am very positive the coldest and most rigid prude upon earth could not have looked upon them without thinking of something not to be spoke of” (182). She says the ladies of Fatima are so gorgeous that one can’t help but become sexually aroused when looking at them.
And when LMWM describes her visit to the bathhouse in her letters in our pamphlet she says again how she cannot stop looking at the bodies of all the naked women! I don’t think LMWM’s letters dispute the sexualization of a Turkish woman; if anything, they validate that earlier assumption, maybe even originating in her unacknowledged stereotypes of these women. (It’s as if she can’t escape this assumption because she doesn’t recognize it.) I find these passages blatantly contradict what we discussed in class – that LMWM presents a new, de-sexualized version of the private life of Turkish women.
One could even argue for the homosexual undertones apparent in the text. If LMWM thinks even “the coldest and most rigid prude upon earth” would think “of something not to be spoken of” when looking at the beautiful Turkish women, what did LMWM think? Why even mention that?
In response to the second question the word want can mean either that he would not lack the assistance of the best poets or that he does not desire the assistance of the best poets. In the first instance that passage would mean that he has read the great poets and so can confer that experience of reading them into his writing. In the second instance the passage would mean that he does not desire the assistance of great poets because he composes so well himself. I think that since he is a man of such great learning the second meaning is what she intends the reader to discover by this passage.
My understanding of the word "want" in that context is actually the first one that Margaret mentioned. That is, once again, to say that she used to word "want" in the context to say that he did not lack help. I believe that she intended to convey that while he was "a man of wit and learning", he was perhaps unable to compose great prose on his own. I believe she is insinuating that he did receive help from all the great poets in the writing of his own poetry.
In response to the second, Montagu is incredibly descriptive when observing her surroundings, that is if she is impressed by them. In the first house she visited, she describes all she deems necessary, which isn't much, and her tone suggests that she expected much more. In Fatima's house, however, she goes into much detail describing everything in sight, carrying on for several paragraphs.
I agree with Shaun. It seemed that Montagu had expected to witness a foreign, exotic way of life. Rather than finding some ancient opulence, preserved in time, the piety she witnesses just brings to home to mind and leaves Montagu unimpressed. Fatima, on the other hand, lives up to the expectations Montagu brings with her travels.
Montagu openly displays her preference towards Fatima. "I am not asham'd to own I took more pleasure in looking on the beauteous Fatima than the finest piece of sculpture could have given me," she constantly gives praise towards Fatima, repeating over and over her supreme graces and beauty. Montagu also uses an excessive amount of exclamation points in her description of Fatima.
I agree with Emma. I used this quotation for our attendance question on Monday. This section stood out to me when reading it for the fact that she was commenting on this individuals lack of ability for composing poetry himself. I think with the definition on "want: as being needing or of that nature was the meaning that LMWM was using. Simply from the text before it, it gave the reader the understanding that there was other individuals that composed good poetry but this individual did not want their assistance. Him completing it own his own was evident because it was not up to the nature of the "best poets".
In the attendance question on Monday, I contemplated on choosing the fourth one versus the one I actually chose. However, in the fourth quotation, “He is a man of wit and learning, but whether or no he is capable of writing good verse himself, you may be sure that on such an occasion he would not want the assistance of the best poets (p. 176). I think that when he uses the word “want” is meaning that he was lacking the helping another. Hence, we were discussing in lecture that the use of the word “want” as well as others can serve a different meaning than our first interpretation. I think that sometimes “a man of wit and learning” simply isn’t “capable of writing a good verse himself” there for he “wanted” help from someone from another without writing the “best poets” on his own. As suggested from previous comments by Emma and Haro, I think that Lady Mary Wortley Montagu is expressing that he did “want” the assistance of another to compose the writing.
In response to the "want" issue, you can also look at the context surrounding the quote. In this case, LMWM is telling Pope about a Turkish poet and she is says that he does not 'want' the assistance of others, "on such an occasion". The occasion itself is that he has seen his "contracted wife", a "young princess", who he has not yet married. I think this leads the reader to believe LMWM means he does not *need* the assistance of other poets, because his feelings are so strong on this subject. He is so moved that she claims "the verses may be look'd upon as a sample of their finest poetry".
It's hard to argue with Shaun's assessment. I think in class we made a pretty good point of understanding that LMWM's trip was to go and visit "the other" and see some things that are exciting and different from home. Instead she ends up seeing things that relate pretty closely to home and is slightly disappointed
However, when she visits Fatima she is pretty blown away and excited for FINALLY visiting someone who is excitingly different.
Concerning the quote on the eroticism of the Turkish dancing (which I presume is belly dancing), I feel like an interesting subject to think about is our English woman. While Lady Montagu's account of the Turkish eroticism suggests somethings about the complexity of Turkish culture - women wear conceal themselves in public but perform these suggestive things in private, which seems kind of hypocritical in a religious sense - we can also distill somethings about the culture the European aka "the White Man." The Europeans in their frenzy of colonization developed this mentality that they were better than the barbarians that they were helping and that helping to bring this people to reason was their burden to bear. I feel like the "Westerners" share this belief that they are free from primitive impulses and whatnot which would include sexual desire and the like but here Lady Montagu's mentioning of the sexuality in the Turkish dance makes me suspect that thoughts on the matter are indeed present in the minds of the Westerners. I mean, from a biological perspective, this fact is kind of obvious I feel because reproduction is the primary directive of all life, but these were just a few thoughts I had on the matter. Even though people at the time may have thought they were above other animals, obviously they are not.
The final quote struck a familiar chord with me. A constant sticking point in religious debates when a non-Muslim brings up quotes from the Koran in English, the Muslim in the debate is quick to point out that the verses (which are, if you haven't read it, poetry) are largely untranslatable sentiment for sentiment from the original language with accuracy. I would wonder the reaction of the Turkish scholars of the time as to the validity of her claim of getting "these verses in a literal translation".
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